I have been training in Judo for many years, and have always kept an open mind, and have included different techniques from different grappling styles into my grappling repertoire. One thing I have noticed with most Judoka in today’s day and age is that they are very sport orientated. Most train 100% for Judo competition. Notice I have said Judo competition. Not MMA style fighting, kickboxing, wrestling or anything else. Just Judo. By doing this they fall into a certain way of fighting that can be applied only to Judo competition. They lose there flexibility in adapting to different situations.
In Judo competition, a win can be achieved by a near perfect throw, by submission (arm locks and choke holds), or by pinning your opponent on the ground for a certain amount of time. When ground fighting, it can be hard to apply a submission to someone who knows how to counter them. It is easier to win by pinning your opponent. Most Judoka know this and train to be able to pin someone only. A few nights ago I took the Judo class where I train. We concentrated on groundwork sparring most of the night, but I told the students that a win could only be achieved through a submission. As the students started sparring, I noticed that they were very good at achieving pins, but from there, even the higher grades where unsure how to apply submission holds, and to completely throw them off course I said leg locks where included. They did not know what to do. The moral here is for not just Judoka but all martial artists to see and understand the value in cross training. If you are a grappler, visit striking schools, and vice versa. You shall be become a more complete fighter and shall feel comfortable training with people from different styles. This cannot be stressed enough.
Tuesday, 8 January 2008
Cross Training for All Martial Artists
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11 comments:
not everyone trains to fight in MMA rule competitions, so theres no point telling judoka's to crosstrain since theyre likely not to compete under those rules. true cross training holds a benefit but it means that more training time is expended elsewhere and would make you weaker in the original martial art you were training at. there is no way to become a perfect all rounder.
DF, you are correct in what you say. If a judo ka dosnt want to fight in MMA then thats fine,his/her bulk of training should be on pure judo, but for self defence, it may be waise to train a little in striking arts, just to make sure that if the unfortunate position of having to fight on the streets arises, he/she will not be shocked when strikes are thrown.
I think cross-training is very necessary if you’re serious about self-defence or even competition: not one art has it all (not even compounded systems like krav-maga or ninpo) and fighting being a complex and dynamic proces it’s unwise to take chances and risk being defeated by a lack of knowledge or inflexibility on your part (which is of course far worse on the street than in competition where generally only your pride gets hurt). The techniques or fighting styles you don’t know or are at least familiar with are the ones that will nail you. Now this does not mean you should become an expert on every aspect of fighting (which is impossible) or that you should attempt to study all fighting-systems known to man (equally impossible), it just means to keep an open mind and that you should strive to be as well-rounded as possible. Every art has its advantages and disadvantages: judo is good at throwing and ground-fighting (in theory) while being extremely weak in the striking-department, karate is good at kicking and punching while they’ll suffer in the clinch or in groundfighting, muay-thai is a very brutal and effective art but they too are weak on the ground and do not practice weapons and so on.
Even ecletic arts like jeet-kune-do or MMA have their downsides inspite of efforts made to minimise this by adding elements from many different fighting styles (making them ecletic): jeet-kune-do is primarely a standing-art and while very good at dealing with kicks and punches (it might very well be the best kickboxing-system ever devised) it’s somewhat lacking in other self-defence aspects (like somebody jumping you from behind and applying a rear-naked choke, to my knowledge they don’t train fort hat). MMA is in itself a very wellrounded system: it deals with all the ranges of combat but is more sports-orientated (you fight in a ring or cage in optimal conditions, one-on-one, with weight-classes, under a fixed set of rules…) and does not include weapons-training.
The best thing to me (making abstraction of circumstances, goals, physical characteristics) would be to get a good foundation in an art that suits you best and then as you become more aware of the weak points of your system look for other systems/arts that complement your base-system.
Look at the old systems of war, they included everything: strikes, kicks, grappling, locks, throws, ground fighting, weapons and strategy. They simply couldn’t afford to neglect one area of training or they’d risk death and bringing ruin to one’s family, clan, people. Be prepared for everything (in as far as that’s humanly possible) and remember where the martial-arts came from: warfare and self-preservation. Adapt and improve and learn and not only will you become better at what you do but you’ll also become more open-minded and respectful of other cultures and (hopefully) towards human-life.
It seems to me in general the younger a system is (historically speaking), the more it is prone to one-sidedness in techniques and training. Judo evolved from ju-jutsu and Kano, in order to make it a combat-sport, eliminated the most effective holds or locks (fingerlocks, necklocks, spinal locks) and all forms of striking. Modern karate is completely different from its original form: Okinawan karate included many holding-techniques and training with weapons (bo, sai, tonfa…). Specialisation leads to proficiency in that particular area but in a real combat-situation it’s artificial and carries great risk. Specialisation came with the rise of competition and while it does carry certain benefits (learning to deal with stress, shortening reaction-time etcet) it has major downsides too. For example: judo is completely useless fors self-defence: not only do you not learn to strike, it instills in you an attitude of avoiding strikes at all costs (this is deadly for fighting moral and effectiveness: I’ve heard of a 3d dan in judo, technical advisor for a major organisation and decades of experience behind his belt who got his lights punched out by a 16-year old). They’re not even very good at ground-fighting either: as Marks pointed out they’re good at achieving pins but not submissions or ground-punching and in reality that’s what going to end the fight, not keeping him on his back for 30 seconds. If someone ever applies a scarf-hold on me I would immediately go for the eyes and proceed to knock him unconscious from the mount.
Now if you want to enter competition that’s your business of course (to each his own) and some of these guys are very good at what they do and can be dangerous but be aware of the limitations of your particular system (and some, in my opinion, are weaker than others) and how it relates to practical self-defence which is after all what the martial arts were invented for in the first place.
Although it is wise for Judo ka to study some striking in order to be better prepared for the streets, it is unfair to say that Judo is completly useless for self defence. Every self defence situation is different and a judo type throw may be all that is needed to defend oneself.
Really? Self-defence means preparing for all possible attacks and punches are one of the most common and instinctive ways of attack, if you cannot defend against that you’ll just have to hope and pray he’ll do you the courtesy of grabbing you (of course excluding grabs combined with any kind of striking). Even then you’ll have a hard time actually throwing someone without stunning them first and certainly not from a standard kumi-kata (which is basically strenght against strenght, if he’s stronger he’ll win and you’ll end up on the ground).
I’ve trained in judo for 5 years and not once did I see an actual combat-application, not once. They do not teach you to fight, they teach you to play and it does nothing for your fighting potential. The one possible benefit I see in judo is that it teaches you the basic elements of a throw (unbalance, position, throw) which you can use in more combative arts like ju-jutsu (where they actually teach you how to strike, enter and throw a resisting opponent).
Not even their breakfalls are proper: judo-breakfalls look impressive (with alot of noise from the slap, like you’d do that on concrete) and works perfectly on the mat but if you try it on a hard surface you’ll end up hurting yourself.
Now I understand you’re looking at this from a sports-perspective and that you are mainly interested in competition which is fine and you’re probably good at it but don’t tell me judo has self-defence value or that it is more than a sport. In my former club they taught it to children age 6 to 10 because it’s safe and fun for them, after that they’d move on to ju-jutsu and aspects of karate. I’m certainly not claiming ju-jutsu is the ultimate in self-defence (their defences to punches and kicks are about the weakest part of the system) and cross-training in boxing or kickboxing (eventhough combat-sports too they are alot more effective than judo and actually have a high self-defence value) is almost a must but at least it teaches you to fight and effectively neutralize your opponent, not play around with him.
I think you have had bad experiences with Judo. Each martial art has something to offer. The throws, chokes and joint locks used in Judo all came from Ju Jutsu, so really, it is not right to say that Ju Jutsu is effective and Judo is not. Yes, Judo Ka who train just for sport must understand that in a self defence situation, they must also consider learning strikes, dirty boxing etc, but the techniques they are familiar with due to there Judo training can be used to there advantage.
I think you should try another Judo school and see how the training is there. All my experiences at many Judo schools has led me to believe that serious Judo ka do not play around during there training.
How can an art that is basically a watered-down version of its parent (with all the truly dangerous techniques removed) be equally effective? No to mention the totally non-combative attitude of judo and its equally artificial tactics: in a fight you do not end up in grappeling range immediately (not usually anyway) and if you try to grab someone without effective entering-skills (which you do not learn in a judo-school) he’ll knock you out before you even got a chance to iniate a throw. Most of the throws are simply too dangerous to apply if you do not hit first, especially with a standard judo-grip: if he tries o-soto-gari in a judo-manner all you have to do is apply forward pressure the moment he tries to reap and you’ll throw him instead of the other way around. In ju-jutsu we use the same throw but with a palm-heel to the chin or a finger-choke thus controlling him and breaking his balance. What is more effective do you think? If he tries ippon-seio-nage without effectively disrupting my attention all I have to do is bumb my hips forward or lower my body-weight when he comes in (in effect blocking his movement), from there you can basically do anything you want: hit him in the back, choke him, throw him…
Thanks for the suggestion but I think I’ll decline, I’ve wasted enough time on judo and I’d rather train something that is effective and meaningful. Now I think I made some very valid points (which you haven’t been able to disprove) and I’ll stick to my guns, that is untill a good judoka manages to actually throw me in a sparring-session (non-judo sparring of course). If he can do that I’ll take back what I said here.
I think there’s something basically and inherently wrong with a martial-art (and that’s what they claim it is) which only teaches self-defence at black-belt level: the kime-no-kata for second dan, which is an only moderately effective form of defence and partly outdated (kneeling defences, sword-defences?) Second dan! That’s like learning how to drive in a parking-lot for years and only then taking your car out on the street.
Now what I do like is BJJ, which is of course derived from judo (and thus indirect from ju-jutsu): they actually learn how to take down a striker (proven conclusively by Royce Gracie) and their ground-fighting is superb. We all know going to the ground isn’t exactly the smartest thing to do in a street-fight but once these guys have you in their guard you’re done for. Combat-sports can be quite effective (BJJ, boxing, kickboxing and certainly MMA) but judo isn’t even effective as a combat-sport (outside of its absurd rules and regulations). What’s left? Exercise I can get by other means and if I’m looking for spirituality or inner martial-arts I’d rather go with aikido or tai-chi (both teaching the blending-principle and non-resistance far better than judo, judo-matches all too easily degenerate into shoving-contests) or plain old religion.
I’m sorry if this all sounded rather harsh and its certainly not meant as a personal insult but I think it’s wrong (in general) to spread the misinformation of judo being a true martial-art or effective (if you’re only effective within very narrow limits you’re not effective at all), especially to the untrained and the ignorant. I have a deep mistrust for the so called ‘do’-arts: do (the Japanese equivalent for Dao or ‘way’) is a meaningless, pseudo-mystical concept. Everything is a Do or way: even riding a bike while juggling balls around can be called a do. Originally all arts (at least the Japanese ones) were called ‘jutsu’ or ‘skill’ (kenjutsu, jujutsu, dakenjutsu) which is a very accurate description: learning to fight is a skill, a practical matter (not a spiritual one) and the techniques are the means to an end (defeating the opponent, protecting your life). If you’re confronted with mortal combat you’re only going to select those techniques and training methods that actually work, that are proven effective and that are handed down from generation to generation (you have to be alive to teach and being alive in those days meant having survived very violent and dangerous confrontations through superior fighting-skill).
Now the Do-arts usually explain the Do by saying it refers to something like self-actualisation or self-improvement but what they’re actually doing is a) giving their students a false sense of confidence (‘I can fight’ while they can’t or inadequatly, certainly not efficiently)
And b) inflating the ego of the practictioner through competition, strenght-training (the martial-arts should not be about strength, if that were true the strong would always defeat the weak which is the way of animals, not humans), kata, board-breaking or meaningless so-called ‘spiritual’ mumbo-jumbo (‘in this art we learn to defeat the opponent without fighting’, yeah right). In the transition from jutsu to do-arts (ju-jutsu to judo, kenjutsu to kendo) with the jutsu they threw out most of the combat-efficiency and replaced it with a concept which they stole from religion (while distorting its meaning) and which has no bearing on actual combat (possessing universal kindness will not help you in a fight). Enlightenment or spiritual insight is a matter (no pun intended) of the soul, fighting and training to fight a matter of the body (including the brain, which is not the same as the soul obviously). Enlightenment can at best be a by-product of martial-arts training (and even then it comes from the person, not from the art) but never the goal. The monks at the Shaolin-temple practiced martial-arts primarely for self-defence and to endure their spiritual exercises longer, not to become enlightened through them. Being a good fighter doesn’t necessarely imply being a good person and vice versa. That being said I do think the jutsu-arts have a positive effect on the self: in learning serious techniques and training hard one devellops respect for one’s partner and for life in general (if you know how to kill, how easy it is, you’ll realise how fragile life is and thus how precious), along with a number of other virtues (courage, humility, etcet).
I agree that most Judo schools do train mearly for sport, but what I am saying is that the sporting techniques which judo ka use can be more than capable of defending oneself on the street. Yes, striking is also a part of street fighting and Judo ka must understand this and its best for them to learn some, but there throwing and grappling skills can come into play if needed and when the time for them to be used is right.
Fighting for the street includes striking, weapons, biting, hair pulling, throwing, ground fighting and any over phase of combat imaginable. Judoka, as long as they are well trained should be ok regarding the throwing and grappling phase. Karate, Thai boxers and other strikers should be ok with the striking phase, BJJ with the ground fighting phase etc etc. But to be good enough for each range it is valuable for martial artists to cross train as much as possible with other styles. This way a martial artist is better prepared for the street.
My opinion is that anyone can benefit from any martial art, and to put one down because you have not felt that the techniques are applicable for a combat situation is wrong.
KarateStudent ("KS") on Crosstraining with Judo Example; Anonymous versus MARKS on Judo for Self-Defense.
Since MARKS post on The MMA demonstration of Judo, MARKS December 2009 Post; "Fedor vs. Mousasi," KS has read up on Judo.
KS thinks Judo, like KS's Tang Soo Do (TSD) has 'holes' in the curriculum, and MARKS points this out in his instruction / lesson at the Judo dojo.
KS also sides with the 'Anonymous' comentator in saying that some martial arts styles may, be design, better than others for self-defense. The Anonymous commentor feels very strong about his position and KS thinks he's justified.
But rather argue about how 'watered down' Judo is, etc. KS thinks MARKS approaches the issue with the better, broader attitude.
MARKS, maybe you can help here, but just wathching MMA, KS has seen a fighter losing the striking game, ultimately win by rear naked choke (MARKS, isn't this a judo technique?). MMA is not a street fight, but it is a good simulation of real fighting, no? And the applied fighter types can't criticize the gi usage because the gi is not necessary to do this choke.
KS's has visited judo schools and these schools tend to promote Judo as a sporting activity. However, as MARKS states, Judo can be considered a martial art and Judo has its roots in traditional martial arts.
What KS has done is, rather than abandon his Tang Soo Do (TSD) for the modern 'super-extra shoot fighting' style (TIC), [as Anonymous suggests to abandon Judo for BJJ--which is legitimate], to devle deeper into what makes a traditional martial art and try to understand what's really involved in getting the value out of TSD.
KS's reseach on Judo quickly uncovered that Judo, like tradtional arts in general, has, besides grappling & submission techniques, has kata and something called ATEMI WAZA.
MARKS, maybe with your judo and karate expertise, you could do a post on Judo vs. BJJ, or Judo sport vs. self defense. Everyone has the right to chose their own style, but KS thinks the Judo shown on MARKS site is way under-rated by Anonymous, others.
KS - Yes the rear naked choke is a technique found in Judo.
You are right Atemi Waza, (vital point striking) is part of Judo, but becuase most Judo schools are so engrossed in sport Judo, self defence technqiues do not get a look in.
Sport Judo which is practised by many, DOES have SOME aspects which can be used for self defence but, for a better understanding and training for self defence, sport Judo fighters do need to thik about some extra different, specialised training.
One of the best crosstraining activities for me is yoga. Before you laugh, hear me out. The increased flexibility of the body means more range of motion, less chance of tapping out. Also less chance of injury as the body becomes more flexible. Other benefits--balance and strength.
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